TALKS WITH SRI AUROBINDOVolume 2 ----------------------- 1 MARCH 1940Nirodbaran was twisting a letter in his hands. Sri Aurobindo, hearing the faint noise, looked back..
SRI AUROBINDO: What's that? NIRODBARAN: Z's letter. He wants guidance. PURANI: Any more of Dutt's stories? NIRODBARAN: No more. He has stopped. SRI AUROBINDO: His story of my meeting him at Baroda Station may be true, as I used to go very often to the Station. And about his earthen tumbler incident, there may be some foundation to it, but I object to the shooting incident. Ask him the names of those two Marathi youths. There was no one I knew who was quite capable of doing such things, going to the Consuls, the Czar, the Kaiser. PURANI: Does Barin's article show any change in his attitude? SRI AUROBINDO (smiling, stretching out both hands in a half-hanging position and then pausing a little): It is difficult to say about Barin. After having failed in whatever he tried, he may look back now in a different light. He says whatever suits him at the moment. There may be some change in his attitude, but how far he has made inner progress is difficult to say. PURANI: A change in attitude doesn't indicate inner progress? SRI AUROBINDO: Not always, because it may be simply a mental change and it may be due to his having failed in everything after going from here, while the Ashram has grown ever since. That may have impressed him. PURANI: To realise and say that he has deviated from the path is rather strong for Barin, I thought. SRI AUROBINDO: He says whatever is uppermost in his mind, according to his moods, and he says it with force. NIRODBARAN: X is trying to boycott the Calcutta Nationalist papers, especially the Jugantar. SRI AUROBINDO: Why? NIRODBARAN: It seems that this paper criticised X and supported the Working Committee. The editor of the Hindustan Standard has been dismissed through his influence. SRI AUROBINDO: What for?
NIRODBARAN: Because the editor made a joint declaration with other editors against X's move to muzzle the press. It is a Leftist paper. Page-515 SRI AUROBINDO: Is that the only Leftist paper? NIRODBARAN: I think so. SRI AUROBINDO: Doesn't X talk of democracy and its rights? NIRODBARAN: Yes, when he is flung down, I suppose. Y seems to have said that fair and just criticism is welcome even of people serving the country. SRI AUROBINDO: But anybody can say he is serving the country and then do whatever he likes. PURANI: X is serving more his personal ambition, I should say. NIRODBARAN: Fazlul Huque gave the same argument when he restricted the Hindustan Standard, saying that fair and just criticism is always welcome but when it brings in the name of Allah, then— SRI AUROBINDO: Allah? NIRODBARAN: Yes, attacking Allah. I believe he means religion. X says that the public have every right to boycott a paper if they find it is going against the national interest. SRI AUROBINDO: The public also have the right to buy any paper they like or to boycott it, but why should anybody advise or dictate to them? The public are not fools. NIRODBARAN: That is exactly what the Patrika says. It declares that the Bengal public are not fools. Let them decide as they wish. Why should X hold meetings from park to park to boycott a particular paper? SATYENDRA: He is holding an anti-compromise conference. SRI AUROBINDO: But who is going in for a compromise? SATYENDRA: It is the impression both of the Leftists and of X that Gandhi will compromise. Gandhi said, "I am not against compromise if that is for the good of the national interest. Satyagraha doesn't preclude compromise." But Gandhi won't betray the country that is quite certain. Everybody is attacking the Congress: X, the Muslims, the Justice Party. NIRODBARAN: M. N. Roy too. SRI AUROBINDO: And X is attacking M. N. Roy. Such is the universal movement. Look at Europe. SATYENDRA: Ours is a reflection of that, perhaps. NIRODBARAN: X says he was an idealist; how was he a political leader?
SRI AUROBINDO: That sort of leadership is nothing. He was just beginning his career. If you have the gift of the gab, the power of ideas and the ability to put them into form, you can always be a Page-516 leader. All politics is a show. In the British Parliament it is the Civil Service people who are really behind everything and these people whose names are never known do the real work. The Ministers are only their mouthpieces, except for a few rare cases like Churchill and Hore-Belisha. The Civil Servants have been at their job for their lifetime and they know everything about it. The Mother's brother, for instance, organised Congoland in Africa and did a lot of work. He was one of the best colonial governors and administrators -but all the credit went to the Minister who was only a figurehead at the top. Even when he was an officer in Equatorial Africa, sometimes as Governor and some-times as Governor-General, the whole job was done by him. He hardly had a bed but used to lie down in an easy-chair. He is nearly seventy now but as soon as the war broke out he went to the office and asked for work. Now he is working eighteen hours a day.
Krishnalal had done a painting of a buffalo. The Mother had been overheard remarking to Sri Aurobindo that it looked a bit sentimental.
SRI AUROBINDO (from his bed, to Purani): I have been looking at the buffalo. It looks as if it were undergoing a psychic change. (To Satyendra) What is your opinion? SATYENDRA: I don't know, Sir. I don't know what the idea behind it is. It doesn't appeal to me. The white elephant plucking lotuses from a pond was all right. The elephant is said to be Durga's vehicle. But why the buffalo? SRI AUROBINDO: The buffalo is also the vehicle of someone. PURANI: Of Yamaraj.
At this point the Mother came in.
SATYENDRA (to the Mother): We have been wondering what the meaning of this buffalo could be. THE MOTHER: Meaning? Did Krishnalal want to give it any meaning? I thought it was only a buffalo, like his cats. One year we had flowers, last year birds and this year beasts. Satyendra narrated some Gujarati stories about buffaloes. Page-517 SRI AUROBINDO (to Nirodbaran): Sarat Chatterji also has written a story, hasn't he? NIRODBARAN: I think it was about a bullock. SATYENDRA: It is supposed that while cow's milk is good, buffalo's milk makes the brain dull. Doctors don't prescribe it. Why don't you take milk. Sir? SRI AUROBINDO: Because I don't care to. SATYENDRA: It is very good for the blood. SRI AUROBINDO : I have plenty of blood, I think. DR. BECHARLAL: Milk is said to be good for spirituality. SRI AUROBINDO: It is no better than Nirod's brinjal. (Laughter) The Mother and I don't take milk. There are many people who have taken milk for many years — even ten years — but I don't know that they have progressed spiritually. Punnuswamy, who was suffering from an ulcer, took nothing but milk. DR. BECHARLAL: Milk is believed to be an ideal food. SRI AUROBINDO: I have no idea. NIRODBARAN: Dr. Becharlal is rather fond of milk. SATYENDRA: I also don't disfavour it. SRI AUROBINDO: But that is for the sake of your blood. (Laughter) SATYENDRA: There are stories of buffaloes being used as sacrifice. SRI AUROBINDO: Ah, then this buffalo must be one which is to be so used! NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto is having his old trouble —pain, vomiting, etc. SRI AUROBINDO: Has he been eating anything? NIRODBARAN: I don't think so. No resources. SRI AUROBINDO: No resources? NIRODBARAN: No pocket money, but he took some sweets which people had brought during the Darshan period. SRI AUROBINDO: Ah, I thought so. NIRODBARAN: But they were nothing much - SRI AUROBINDO: Nothing much? NIRODBARAN: I mean, not so much in quantity - about three or four, he said. SRI AUROBINDO: How was he cured last time? NIRODBARAN: By your Force, he says. Page-518 SRI AUROBINDO: And now he is brought back to his old condition by his own force? NIRODBARAN: It seems Dutt's story about Prafulla Chakravarty's death is not all correct. Nolini himself was one of the party. They never approached Dutt. But the boy's death by a bomb explosion is quite true. PURANI: Nolini said that Barin was carrying the bomb in his hand with the cap on. SRI AUROBINDO: Cap on? Just like Barin. PURANI: And when Prafulla threw the bomb, it exploded in the air before touching the ground. NIRODBARAN: Chakravarty thought that as soon as it would touch the ground he would hide himself behind a rock. He didn't expect it would explode before. SRI AUROBINDO: Even so, it was very risky to watch like that. I think it was Nevinson who said that the Indian revolutionaries were as good as the Russian. But this incident is hardly an encouraging one. Time is needed to become efficient. It took the Prussians more than a hundred years to throw off the Czar. Among the Indian revolutionaries Rashbehari Bose was an exceptional man —very clever in every way. Pulin Das was also very good. PURANI: Rashbehari was really remarkable. He was a linguist. He used to speak Punjabi just like a Punjabi. He escaped just the night before the arrests. All the others got arrested.
2 MARCH 1940THE MOTHER (coming into Sri Aurobindo's room at 11.00 a.m.): Do you want to hear a story? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, what is it about? THE MOTHER: About the theft in Aroume. It seems that a man was lying drunk against the wall with a bag of husk by his side. The time was about 8.30 a.m. Some sadhaks saw him and found that he was the Dining Room's sanitary servant. They showed compassion for him but didn't know what to do. They came to Amrita. He went there, hired a rickshaw put the man in it and sent him home. In the morning Dyuman found that a bag of husk was missing from the Dining Room, and he saw traces of footprints on the wall. This man evidently climbed the wall, fell down and lay there in a drunken Page-519 condition. So now these people have first lost the thief and then paid money for him to go home along with the bag of husk! (Sri Aurobindo started laughing.)
Later, during his sponging, Sri Aurobindo spoke to Purani who had not been there in the morning.
SRI AUROBINDO: Have you heard the story of Buddhist compassion in Aroume? PURANI: No; is it about some theft? I saw Amrita bustling about. SRI AUROBINDO (after recounting the story to Purani): Amrita out of Buddhist compassion paid the man's rickshaw fare. SATYENDRA: I too was there at that time. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, you were also one of the Buddhists? SATYENDRA: No, Sir. I was only a spectator. The whole story sounds like one of Dutt's. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes -only it has the disadvantage of being true. It seems there have been thefts in the house of Benabellis and of the Inspector of Police. It has proved the inefficiency of the Police. SATYENDRA: Dutt's stories have shed a flood of light on old events. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the light that never was on sea or land. PURANI: May I recount a tale about Barin now? Sudhir told me that once Barin came to his house as a guest. Sudhir asked him straight why he had left Pondicherry and to his straight question wanted a straight answer. "When all are turning towards Pondicherry," he said, "how is it that you have come ? You had many experiences, stayed a long time. Still why have you come ? Tell me frankly." SRI AUROBINDO (enjoying the story): And then? What was the reply? PURANI: The first day Barin evaded Sudhir. The second day he again was asked and then Barin told him that he had come because of his personal difficulties. The Mother had asked him repeatedly not to go; even while going he was having experiences right up to Villupuram, as if he were being carried in a golden egg by the Mother and he was all the time hearing, "Don't go, don't go." But he wouldn't listen. He had fallen from the path and was getting the consequences of the fall. Page-520 EVENING
PURANI : I asked Krishnalal whether he had any idea behind his buffalo. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): Yes? What was his answer? PURANI: He says he wanted to paint a goat first. As he had heard that somebody was presenting a goat to the Ashram, he waited for confirmation. In the meantime he did this buffalo in a single day. SRI AUROBINDO: All the same he has done it well. PURANI: He wanted to show, as you said, a psychic change. SRI AUROBINDO (breaking into laughter on hearing about the confirmation of his own joke): It looks like a well-disposed cow and a bit of a dog too. But there is more psychic sorrow in it than joy- sorrow over the sins of the world. (Laughter) Have you heard that the thief has paid rather heavily for a little bag of husk? He has been handed over to the Police; he will lose his job and has also lost two rupees. Perhaps it is the rickshawalla who has deprived him of the money. SATYENDRA: I suspect more the servant, Sir, who accompanied him and was taking care of him. (Laughter) But why did he scale the wall when the door was quite open? SRI AUROBINDO: He was too drunk to know that. PURANI: Some other things were found in the bag, they say. SRI AUROBINDO: Amrita's old shirt, which was presented to the man according to his own story. He has confessed to the Police about the bag but said that he was too drunk to know what he was doing. What will be the law of Karma in his case? He has paid heavily for his Karma in this life, and will he pay still more heavily in the next? SATYENDRA: No, Sir, it is more than cancelled. (Laughter) A man loiters regularly near the wine shop by the side of our Dining Room and makes rather free use of the liquor available. Dr. Becharlal is anxious about him and says, "This poor man will die of his liver." PURANI: He may die without it as well. SRI AUROBINDO : With no liver! (Laughter) Page-521 3 MARCH 1940NIRODBARAN: Dutt was much impressed, it seems, by the Ashram, and much moved. SRI AUROBINDO: How? NIRODBARAN: Don't know; that is what they are saying. PURANI: Nolini was telling his last story. SRI AUROBINDO: What is it? PURANI : It seems it was when he was interned somewhere. SRI AUROBINDO: Was he interned? NIRODBARAN: Yes, in Cooch Bihar, he said. PURANI: His father was anxious to reinstate him in his job. So he thought the best way would be to make him see Sir Andrew Fraser who might then think that Dutt was quite innocent. Dutt had to be coaxed to agree but on the condition that he would only see him in his Bengali dress and wouldn't wait in the Governor's ante-chamber. It was agreed. Dutt then put on a dirty dhoti and shirt and kept his slippers on. In that condition he went straight to Fraser whose legs were shaking out of fear, and his right hand was slightly thrust forward. A bodyguard stood behind Fraser with a revolver pointed at Dutt. Dutt could even see the metallic point of the revolver. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Nonsense. He could see the metallic point of his own imagination. PURANI: After the interview, while he was coming , he said, "My father has asked me to offer his thanks to you," to which Fraser laughed aloud. SRI AUROBINDO: What has Fraser got to do with his job? He was at Bombay. PURANI: Perhaps Fraser could cast some influence. SRI AUROBINDO: You don't know Dutt's other story? What Fraser said about me? PURANI: No. SRI AUROBINDO: Fraser, after seeing me in jail, said to Dutt, "I have seen him. He has the eyes of a madman." Dutt replied, "No, he has the eyes of a Karmayogi." (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Dutt wanted to write to Mother, but it seems he has a false idea that Mother has told him not to write anything. SRI AUROBINDO: Mother told him it was not necessary to write for permission of darshan for his wife. Page-522 NIRODBARAN: Yes, they told him so. SATYENDRA: Now he will tell all sorts of stories about Pondicherry. (Laughter) Nobody will contradict him. NIRODBARAN: T may now say, "Dutt is sentimental." SRI AUROBINDO: And he may also say, "Why are all these people going to Aurobindo Ghose?" T is very childlike in some ways. PURANI: He will get another shock. SRI AUROBINDO: And will say that the world is getting sentimental.
DR. BECHARLAL: There is a superstition that by looking at the moon one goes mad. Is there any truth here? SRI AUROBINDO: Ramachandra says that. According to him Premshankar went mad by concentrating on the moon. Poets are said to be influenced by the moon, but, I suppose, poets are mad people anyway. DR. BECHARLAL: I personally get much peace by looking at the moon. . NIRODBARAN: But do you have a fear of going mad? (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: If you simply look without concentrating on it, it is all right! {(Laughter) PURANI : In a journal K gives an explanation for the earthquake in Turkey. He says that it is due to the war-fever in Europe. SRI AUROBINDO: How? What has Turkey got to do with the war-fever? PURANI: His argument is queer. He says, "When the stomach is upset, the head aches; when the hand steals, the back gets a beating." SRI AUROBINDO: That doesn't always hold. The head may ache without any stomach upset or the hand may indulge in stealing without the back getting beaten. PURANI: In his view the question is whether the moral law is partially active or absolutely active. Is there any room for accident or chance? SRI AUROBINDO: Why take for granted that these are the sole alternatives? There may be so many other factors. PURANI: He speaks of fate. SRI AUROBINDO: There may be things like that. Page-523 PURANI: Gandhi's explanation of the Bihar earthquake is similar. He said it was due to the sins of the people. SRI AUROBINDO: That at least is more reasonable than K's idea. The sins are Indian and the earthquake is Indian. But why should the war-fever in Europe make Turkey have an earthquake? I don't understand, in any case, why people always associate outer events with morality and interpret them in terms of sin and punishment. It is a question I have raised in The Life Divine. If, for instance, a man gets knocked on the head by some accident, why bring in the question of morality and say that it must be due to his sin or Karma? And what have the peasants dying in Anatolia by earthquake got to do with the sins of people arming and fighting in Europe? The disaster is due simply to the movement of Nature's forces. PURANI : K says it is a question of faith, not intellectual explanation. SRI AUROBINDO: Then why argue about it and give reasons? We might as well say that S is suffering because of the sins of mankind. According to the Hindu Shastras, four generations suffer for the sins of the father. SATYENDRA: That is hereditary syphilis. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: And according to the Mahabharata, the king is responsible for the sins of his subjects. In that case, Mustapha Kemal would be responsible for the earthquake because he abolished the Caliph, religion, etc. If the headache is due to the stomach, what about Gandhi's blood-pressure? Is it due to the stomach also? It would be more correct to say that it was due to the sins of Jinnah. (Laughter) SATYENDRA: Moral law is not the creator and upholder of creation. SRI AUROBINDO: No, prior to man there was no moral law. In the material or vital world, moral law doesn't exist. It comes in with man, and at a certain stage of his development it is useful. Even then, it is a social necessity, because without some kind of moral law society can't exist. But to say that the world is regulated by moral law is to deny the facts of existence. That is absurd. There are two ways: one can either go beyond moral law as we seek to do by spirituality or one can uphold moral law as an ideal to be realised. This is understandable. If there is a moral legislator of the world, why does he give the same punishment for different sins? Page-524 PURANI: K says man ought to learn lessons from these things. Vinoba Bhave maintains that one must even starve to death. SRI AUROBINDO: For nothing? PURANI: For non-violence, Ahimsa. SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps that's nothing. (Laughter) Even then it won't solve the problem, for you will be killing so many germs in your body by starvation. PURANI: He says one has the right to take one's own life. SRI AUROBINDO: That is questionable. You have no right to take the life that has been given to you for a particular purpose.
4 MARCH 1940NIRODBARAN: How far can withdrawal be useful in sadhana? SRI AUROBINDO: Mere withdrawal is not enough. A man may separate himself from the contacts of the world but it doesn't mean that all his desires and hankerings have ceased. If you simply withdraw without throwing the seeds of attachment and don't replace the ordinary by the spiritual consciousness, the problem remains unsolved. If you permit the seeds to remain, they may keep quiescent for a time but as soon as circumstances present themselves they may come up. Withdrawal may lead to a neutral state but that is not our Yoga. We want spiritual dynamism, as the source of action. NIRODBARAN: If one writes about metaphysics or philosophy with a spiritual attitude the spiritual consciousness must be there. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Must it? Attitude is not enough. There must be an inner change too. Of course if one wrote from his personal experience and vision it would be different. But remaining withdrawn need not lift one into the spiritual consciousness: one may very well be in the mental consciousness. Philosophical writings are of the mental plane. NIRODBARAN: Calm and peace may be there behind. SRI AUROBINDO: That is not sufficient. There must be the spiritual dynamism too, which would be projected into all the activities. SATYENDRA: There are many people who have peace or have experienced a descent of peace into them —solid peace which is the peace of Brahman. (To Nirodbaran) You had it yourself. Page-525 NIRODBARAN: No, I didn't. SRI AUROBINDO: He is indignantly denying it. SATYENDRA: At least the experience of light and force. NIRODBARAN: Not of light. SATYENDRA: He is speaking about his own problem., Sir. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: His own problem? Is it to get to the Brahman or to the psychic being? SATYENDRA: His psychic has emerged. SRI AUROBINDO: Simple emergence will not do, the psychic must come forward. NIRODBARAN: I am a little surprised. When you said that there are five or six people in the Ashram who are living in the Brahmic consciousness, I thought X was one of them. SRI AUROBINDO: The Brahmic consciousness? I must have used the term loosely. Peace and calm is only a part of that consciousness and not the whole of it. One may be in contact with it or able to go into it at will or there may be the reflection of it in the mind and the vital. All that is partial. One has to go further, into the higher consciousness above the head and remain there. NIRODBARAN: Then I suppose one won't be disturbed by these things. SRI AUROBINDO: Even if they come, one won't be touched by them. They will be on the external surface, coming and passing, or one may look upon them as if they belonged to somebody else. This Brahmic consciousness descends first into the mental and then the peace and calm remains in all the activities of the mind. The test comes when it descends into the vital. Unless the vital is purified, one may fail. This is called falling from yoga, yogabhrashta, as happened here in the early years. When the Brahmic consciousness descended into the vital, all broke down. NIRODBARAN: But one can keep it in the mind. It need not come into the vital. SRI AUROBINDO: No, but that would be the old Yoga, in which people want to depart from the world, living in their highest mental consciousness. But when they come into contact with the external world, they can't keep that poise and silence. The seeds have not been thrown ; they have only remained dormant. There are also cases where people leave the vital to do as it likes. You know the story of the Vedantin and Ramakrishna. The Vedantin came to the Page-526 Math with a concubine. Ramakrishna asked why he was moving about with her. He replied, "What does it matter? Everything is Maya." "Then I spit on your Vedanta," Ramakrishna exclaimed. SATYENDRA: There are many Yogis with this consciousness, who live in the world and have contact with the world and yet are in that consciousness. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, one may exercise a sufficient mental control over the vital. NIRODBARAN: Then the question is: are they controlling the vital with the mind or has the Brahmic consciousness actually descended into the vital so that all their activities come from that higher dynamism. SATYENDRA: Of course their activities are of a limited kind. They accept life only as much as is necessary for their purpose. NIRODBARAN: Then that is different from what we are speaking of. SATYENDRA: Some people here say that such a realisation is imperfect. SRI AUROBINDO: Not imperfect. They mean incomplete, and that too from our standpoint. From the standpoint of others it is complete and perfect. SATYENDRA: It is only you, Sir, who have brought in this idea of acceptance of life, descent and transformation. Others wanted liberation. SRI AUROBINDO: Liberation is all right. Everybody wants it and must have it. SATYENDRA: Even the Vaishnavites and Tantrics wanted an extraterrestrial Goloka or an escape into Shiva. In the South, Ramalinga Swami had the idea of physical transformation and immortality. SRI AUROBINDO: In the South such an idea is more common. SATYENDRA: I have also come in contact with Yogis who have lived up to an old age. One was about a hundred and two years old. He died a few years after I saw him and another died at eighty or so. That was also one or two years after my contact. SRI AUROBINDO: How is it that people who have lived up to an old age died soon after you have come in contact with them? Brahmanand who is said to have been more than two hundred, died soon after I me him and Sakharia Baba who was about eighty, died from dog-bite soon after my meeting him. Page-527 SATYENDRA: In reference to Dr. Becharlal's mention of getting peace by looking at the moon, I may say that some people whom I know get peace by concentration on breath and by repeating a mantra—say, Ramanama—with each breath. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is quite a well-known method. Any kind of concentration that quiets the mind gives peace. SATYENDRA (looking at N and smiling): If Nirod's path had been of Brahmic consciousness he would have got it by now. His is of the psychic, perhaps. NIRODBARAN: I may get it unconsciously one day. SRI AUROBINDO: Unconsciously you may have got it already. (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: I couldn't quite follow the first part of your answer about the replacement of the ordinary consciousness by the spiritual. SRI AUROBINDO: What I said was that withdrawal is not enough. The seeds of the ordinary life have also to be thrown away and one has to get the spiritual consciousness; one has to get to the true spiritual dynamism which is the source of right action.
SATYENDRA: There is a difference between the reflection of peace and the descent of peace, isn't there? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The descent of peace is more intense and powerful. Besides, the descent opens the way. SATYENDRA: For other things? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, and also for the ascent. SATYENDRA: Another question: how can one be free from ego, have a complete release from ego? SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean by a complete release? SATYENDRA: I mean that the sense of individuality will be lost. SRI AUROBINDO : When one gets into the cosmic or the transcendent, then the sense of ego is lost. Complete release is difficult unless the nature is transformed. When the sense of ego is lost, still the habits remain, the habits of the old nature. Of course, there is no I-ness. One is not egoistic in one's actions, etc., but the habits persist. Even when everything is rejected from all the parts, the subconscious remains and it carries the stamp of all the old things. But one is not affected or touched by these habits. One can see that Page-528 they are something exterior, not properly belonging to one's being. People sometimes think and say that they have no ego, that their ego has disappeared. But others can see quite clearly the egoistic movements or actions which are not clear to themselves. Y, who is dead now, used to say the same thing, that he had no ego. The more we contradicted him and pointed out to him the truth, the more he would insist. He used to say that he was moved by some Force. That was true, but he was moved by it because it flattered his ego; if it had not flattered his ego, he wouldn't have been moved. He was lacking in self-criticism. You can judge from one statement of his whether he had ego or not. He said, "I alone possess the Truth." (Laughter) He was of a rajasic nature and it is very difficult with that nature to get rid of ego. After this, Sri Aurobindo lay down and addressed Champaklal. SRI AUROBINDO: Champaklal, I am going to be Gandhi-like tomorrow. I will wear a dhoti high enough to make my walking easy and from tomorrow I will sit in the chair and write. CHAMPAKLAL: And what about going for bath? SRI AUROBINDO: Everything will come step by step. You don't want me to be like Subhas Bose, do you? (Laughter) 5 MARCH 1940
PURANI: While talking on the world situation yesterday, did you say that the Indian problem is no less complex or did you mean our Ashram problem? SRI AUROBINDO: I said nothing about the Ashram and I didn't use the word "complex". I said "extremely confused" and added that the Indian situation is no less so with its Muslims, Parsis, X, Y, etc. SATYENDRA: When one has attained to the higher consciousness and is firmly seated in that consciousness, then one can slowly take up any activity without getting disturbed. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. NIRODBARAN: In the transitional stage till the mind is replaced by the spiritual consciousness, with what attitude should one do his work? SRI AUROBINDO: What work? Page-529 NIRODBARAN: Say, philosophical or political. SRI AUROBINDO: It is not necessary to do political work. About the philosophical, one has to reject what ought to be rejected from the nature, for example, the habit of disputation, considering one's own idea alone as true and not seeing the truth in other's ideas and taking up an idea because one likes it, not because it is true. That is the nature of the mind in general. (After a pause) In my own case so long as I was in the mind I couldn't understand philosophy at all. I tried to read Kant but couldn't read more than one page. Plato, of course, I read. But it was only when I went above the mind that I could understand philosophy and write philosophy. Ideas and thoughts began to flow in, visions and spiritual experience. Insight and spiritual perception, a sort of revelation built my philosophy. It was not by any process of mental reasoning or argument that I wrote the Arya. NIRODBARAN: Then you didn't try by the mind to understand? SRI AUROBINDO: As I said, I read only one page of Kant and then gave it up, because it wouldn't go in: that is, it didn't become real to me. I was like Manilal grappling with The Life Divine. Plato I could read, as he was not merely metaphysical. Nietzsche also because of his powerful ideas. In Indian philosophy I read the Upanishads and the Gita, etc. They are, of course, mainly results of spiritual experience. People think I must be immensely learned and know all about Hegel, Kant and the others. The fact is that I haven't even read them; and people don't know I have written everything from experience and spiritual perception. Modern philosophers wrap their ideas up in extraordinary phraseology and there is too much gymnastics of the mind—even then they don't seem to have gone deeper than the Greeks in their ideas and theories. I read some of the commentaries of Romania, Shankara, etc. They seemed to me mere words and phrases and at the end Romania says that nobody has experienced Pure Consciousness — a most amazing statement, absurd. NIRODBARAN: In your case it was an opening then, like the one to painting? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; but with painting, it was a moment's sudden opening while this one was a result of spiritual experience. NIRODBARAN: Then I can hope to understand philosophy some day. SATYENDRA: You want to understand Kant? Page-530 NIRODBARAN: Oh, no, no! SRI AUROBINDO: It would be a sheer waste of time for him. SATYENDRA: Then Sri Aurobindo's philosophy? NIRODBARAN: Yes, and Indian philosophy. Even here there is too much complication; there are so many Purushas and Prakritis. SRI AUROBINDO: There is only one Prakriti. NIRODBARAN: Para and Apara Prakriti. SRI AUROBINDO: What is difficult there? Para Prakriti is nature higher than your own. EVENINGNIRODBARAN: Will you now have time to finish Savitri SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, Savitri will take a long time. I have to go over all the old ground. NIRODBARAN: How? SRI AUROBINDO : Every time I find more and more imperfections. NIRODBARAN: Jatin Bal is preparing some notes for you on Einstein's relativity. This led to a talk on relativity between Sri Aurobindo and Purani who brought in Riemann's name as a famous mathematician. SRI AUROBINDO: Euclid was bad enough. When Riemann came in, it was time for me to give up mathematics. 6 MARCH 1940In the Prabartak of January 1940, M translated into English his article "Life's Companion" in which there is reference to Sri Aurobindo. Purani read out portions of the article.
PURANI: "He (Sri Aurobindo) used to raise the topic of Vasudeva, Pradyumna, etc., and explain the subject with emotion." SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't know that I had any emotion during my explanation. PURANI: "I used to read all my articles to him. Udbodhan, a dramatic composition, I read from start to finish." Page-531 SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! It would have been a wonder if I could stand it to the end. PURANI: "He would freely relate how he stayed in the air in meditation." SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! That legend seems to be going to last. PURANI: "I heard from his lips that Ramakrishna sat before him consoling him when he was arrested at Grey Street." SRI AUROBINDO: When? That is another story. PURANI: "He would relate how the hard iron bars of the prison felt soft like butter..." SRI AUROBINDO: Romantic! PURANI: "... and the devilish figures of thieves." SRI AUROBINDO: Devilish? I never used that word. It is his imagination. They were not devilish figures, but like human beings. He is an imaginative fellow, of course not like Dutt. PURANI: "We feared that if he stayed long in one place, his concealment would come to light." SRI AUROBINDO: That is true. PURANI : "He was removed unexpectedly. People knew that he had gone to the Himalayas for Sadhana." SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! PURANI: "I was charged with taking him in a carriage to the southern border of the town. It was midnight. I found that the coachman was asleep. With great caution I brought out the horses etc... I handed over Sri Aurobindo to the gentleman as already arranged." SRI AUROBINDO: I don't remember about all that; it may be true. I know that I was to be handed over to somebody in whose house there was Saraswati Puja. PURANI: "Then I drove back home and informed my wife of the whole affair. She asked, 'The coachman didn't know?' 'No', I replied. 'A serious thing,' she said; 'then a thief might take the carriage.' 'All this due to Sri Aurobindo's saintliness.' I added. She concluded saying, 'Everything is a big event with you. Do go to sleep.'" (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: She has more common sense. I knew that he was imaginative, but not inventive. I thought that inventiveness was reserved for Dutt. Page-532 SATYENDRA: He must have achieved something in order to be able to hold so many people together. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was the vital force that he got from me and he had some experiences too. He claimed to have gone above the head but there was no manifestation in his expression, there was no mental result. He wanted to go for the Supermind but when the demands were made on him he drifted . NIRODBARAN: We heard that his Adhar was small. How could he then receive your Force? SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? Do you mean to say that because a man is small, he will always remain small? "Small" means he got no expansion. NIRODBARAN: He was in contact with you for a short period only; about three or four years, wasn't he? SRI AUROBINDO: No; I stayed in his house for a month; he came here three or four times. PURANI: He was in contact for more than ten or twelve years. The last time I met him, in 1918 perhaps, he said that he was getting direct guidance and inspiration from you. NIRODBARAN: Was it as a result of the development of his spiritual consciousness or by your Force that he achieved so much? SRI AUROBINDO: It was his vital opening to the Force I gave him. NIRODBARAN: And spiritual? SRI AUROBINDO: Very mixed. NIRODBARAN: Then you gave him the Force for the vital? SRI AUROBINDO: I gave it for both. SATYENDRA: But his vital opened. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was an opening into a larger consciousness, the cosmic vital, the force for action and movement. It was all my plan and idea I gave him when I left that he worked out. PURANI: Yes, he got all the help from your name and association. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he described himself as my spiritual agent in Bengal. SATYENDRA: Everybody knew that he was connected with you. Page-533 SRI AUROBINDO: He said at one time that his body was burning and his head was on fire — it was true — and that disappeared by his contact with me. CHAMPAKLAL: When the Mother first saw him, she is supposed to have said that he was wonderful. SRI AUROBINDO: Wonderful? I don't know about that; at least Mother didn't tell me. R said that he would be wonderful in America. SATYENDRA: That takes much of the compliment. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: It was because of his energy and eloquence that R said that. NIRODBARAN: There is authentic evidence about the Hanumant Rao cures. He himself has written a letter. SRI AUROBINDO (seeing the address): It is Mother's letter. It has been addressed to her. NIRODBARAN: Yes; it has been sent to be read to you. SRI AUROBINDO: Who has decided that? Mother's letters should go to her. CHAMPAKLAL: Isn't it the same? SRI AUROBINDO: Read it. Nirodbaran read the letter and there were instances of Rao's miraculous cures of madness, snakebites, etc., by using the Mother's Force, by the stretching of his right and left hands. SRI AUROBINDO: There is no mention of leprosy. NIRODBARAN: No. SRI AUROBINDO: It is the vital force. There were many such cases of cures by placing the hand on the head. They used to call it the passage of fluid magnetism into the body. CHAMPAKLAL: He says it is the Mother's Force. SRI AUROBINDO: Why shouldn't it be? NIRODBARAN: You said vital force. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, force acting through the vital. It is the vital-physical force; being nearer the physical it has a more powerful effect in such cases. One can cure by mental power also, but that requires more power of concentration. PURANI (smiling, from behind): Nirod wants such a force! SRI AUROBINDO: Stretching the right hand and the left? Page-534 NIRODBARAN: My problem is solved. Sri Aurobindo has said that the vital has to be pure first in order to get intuition. PURANI : That is for intuition but this is cure by the Force, not by medicine. NIRODBARAN: For both, purity, seems to be necessary. SRI AUROBINDO: Without purity you may become egoistic. Otherwise plenty of people cure without purity. NIRODBARAN: That's what I was going to ask — why should it be necessary? SRI AUROBINDO: To have vital purity? (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: No, to have that first to be able to cure. Both can go together.
EVENINGSRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): What has become of your thief? PURANI: Which thief? The one with the bag of husk? SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. PURANI: He has been released. It was not important. The police said that it was done under the effect of wine. (Laughter) SRI AUROBINDO: He felt inspired? (Laughter) PURANI: Perhaps. Mother has again taken him into service. (Sri Aurobindo laughed.) PURANI: Amrita's servant has stood guarantee for him. SATYENDRA: And who stood guarantee for Amrita's servant? (Laughter) PURANI: They have made a good collection for the Red Cross. Dr. André and his chief were members. It is Rs. 8000. SATYENDRA: It depends on who collects. SRI AUROBINDO: And if the Governor writes the names of persons, they can't but pay. SATYENDRA: Have we paid anything? SRI AUROBINDO: No, they didn't come to us. Mother set apart a sum for them. NIRODBARAN: How much did André contribute? PURANI: I don't know. He can't pay much. He has bought a plot of land beside his house. SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): You don't want to insinuate that he gathers money in this way for his personal use? (Laughter) Page-535 PURANI: No, I meant that he can't pay much just now. SRI AUROBINDO: The incident coming just after the collection made me think that you wanted to suggest that. (Laughter) PURANI: No, no. SATYENDRA: I don't see why people should contribute to this war. One doesn't know when it will end or what results it will bring to people. These people themselves are responsible for the war. Germany is more bitter against England. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is mainly England who is responsible. After the conquest of the last war it was England who set Germany on foot again to play against France, it being the biggest power in Europe. Now England will again court Germany after this war. 7 MARCH 1940NIRODBARAN: A letter from Charu Ghose. Do you remember he wrote asking your blessings and you inquired, " Who is he?" SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, who is he? NIRODBARAN: He replied, "I am an ordinary man, a clerk, aged fifty-one. I have no other relation except my wife. I could get no learning." SRI AUROBINDO: Ideal condition for Yoga. He is extraordinary in having no learning but ordinary in having no children. NIRODBARAN: Then a question comes, "Is there anything more than what I have understood after reading Sri Aurobindo's books? I want to practise the Yoga of surrender by the help of his force and knowledge." So what's the answer? SRI AUROBINDO: Has he done any Yoga? He speaks of surrender. So he may know something. He can be asked what he has understood of my works. NIRODBARAN: That is a question difficult to answer. SRI AUROBINDO: I mean what he has understood practically and not philosophically of the Yoga of self-surrender. NIRODBARAN: While in England I read your book The Yoga and Its Objects. I thought, "Why, it is very easy." (Laughter) SATYENDRA: That book is merely a general statement about Yoga. It was only afterwards, when the Supermind came in that everything was made difficult. In this Yoga there is a perpetual progression, no fixed goal or end. Page-536 SRI AUROBINDO: There is an end at present. NIRODBARAN: What? SRI AUROBINDO: Supermind. SATYENDRA (to Nirodbaran): How do you find it now? NIRODBARAN: Well, I am paying for that facile thought about Yoga being easy. SATYENDRA: For me it is still more difficult because I have been accustomed to look at the world as unreal and at Brahman as real. Now I have to accept the world, which the mind refuses to do, having been trained for such a long time in the other principle. SRI AUROBINDO: For that reason I had to write three volumes of The Life Divine. Otherwise, as Nirod says, Yoga would be easy. NIRODBARAN (to Satyendra): It is no less difficult for us. To you Brahman is real, the world is unreal and for us it is the other way round. (Laughter) So the difficulty is the same. SATYENDRA: No, Sri Aurobindo has said that the denial of the materialist is not so hard to overcome as the refusal of the ascetic. Since your talk on X in connection with politics, Dr. Becharlal has given up reading newspapers. He reads only the headlines. CHAMPAKLAL: Is that why Satyendra is always putting papers by his side? SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): I didn't mean it for him, I myself read newspapers and enjoy whatever is interesting. For instance, Abdulla Haroon says that each minority is an independent nation. Of course Muslims first-but Harijans are also a natio. (Laughter) SATYENDRA: Dr. Alam also seems to be going over to the League. He says now it is a question of distribution. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he says the fight is now not against the Government but between Hindus and Muslims. The cake is already there; the question is how to distribute it. SATYENDRA: He says that all Muslims should join the League to combat the Congress objection that the League is not the only Muslim organisation. SRI AUROBINDO: It is like the fox which had lost its tail asking others to do the same. Page-537 |